This has become quite an entertaining thread to read! ;-)

Halifax, I can't believe you're going to waste your time in such a fashion on this one.

You then proceed to reproduce a standard ASSIGNMENT paragraph that is found in all Cardholder's Agreements. And then you say that the Bank had no authorization to sell the account and indeed even less to collect personal information, etc. ARE YOU JOKING? Thar's precisely the purpose of the ASSIGNMENT paragraph. It authorizes the Bank to sell your account at any time without notice to you and give information about you and your account to the purchaser or transferee. If you didn't or don't agree with this assignment paragraph, why did you activate your credit card?

And then you say "the Bank had no authorization..................to collect personal information, etc." Are you telling me that when someone ( I.e. the bank ) is considering whether to loan you money, they have no right to ask for your name, address, telephone number, birth date, income and source of income? C'mon, GET REAL.

So if they can't produce the agreement then they can't prove it existed then they can't prove I gave them permission to assign the account. So if I didn't have an agreement copy then how could I agree with the assignment paragraph
maybe you are wrong on this one, and as to "weasel" out of a legal obligation spare me the morality I'll fight them any way I can.
Are you telling me the Banks and Collection Agencies don't weasel?
grow up and act your age.

This is why I said in an earlier blog that when a collection agency is assigned a debt to collect from the original creditor or has purchased the debt from the original creditor, they are required pursuant to their respective Collection Agencies Act to send you a letter on their letterhead and signed by an authorized representative of the collection agency stating the following:

1. that they have been assigned a debt to collect from XYZ Company....OR
that they have purchased a debt from XYZ Company

2. the amount of the debt owing

3. the account number that was assigned to the debt by the original creditor

They then must wait 6 days BEFORE they can communicate with you by telephone to discuss this debt, There is absolutely nothing in the relevant legislation that says that the collection agency or debt buyer is required to show proof to the debtor that they have purchased the debt. Therefore, if there is nothing in the legislation that states that the collection agency or debt buyer has to show proof that they purchased the debt, then you have no LEGAL right to demand it.

When you complete an application for a credit card and they ask for your date of birth, the credit card company has no LEGAL right to demand to see your birth certificate. It works the same way.

In the case that you made reference to in a previous blog re: FCAC. that dispute arose between the ORIGINAL parties to a line of credit and the necessary documentation that was required to be given to the customer by the bank. However, in your situation, you are no longer dealing with an ORIGINAL party but instead with a collection agency who is not and was not a party at the time the credit card was issued.to you. Consequently, quibbling over a Cardholder's Agreement is of no relevance to the collection agency.

You then proceed to reproduce a standard ASSIGNMENT paragraph that is found in all Cardholder's Agreements. And then you say that the Bank had no authorization to sell the account and indeed even less to collect personal information, etc. ARE YOU JOKING? Thar's precisely the purpose of the ASSIGNMENT paragraph. It authorizes the Bank to sell your account at any time without notice to you and give information about you and your account to the purchaser or transferee. If you didn't or don't agree with this assignment paragraph, why did you activate your credit card?

And then you say "the Bank had no authorization..................to collect personal information, etc." Are you telling me that when someone ( I.e. the bank ) is considering whether to loan you money, they have no right to ask for your name, address, telephone number, birth date, income and source of income? C'mon, GET REAL.

It appears to me that you are trying to WEASEL out of a legal obligation. Many before you have tried and many before you have failed. I would suggest that you take several quiet moments to "collect your thoughts" and to deal with this situation in a mature manner. I don't mind giving you my thoughts and suggestions as to how to proceed however, if you are not comfortable with my observations, then I suggest that you seek out the services of a litigation lawyer for a second opinion.

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Educating one Consumer at a time

Thanks Footloose, good to get your thoughts/opinions.
First I need to see from them proof that the debt was sold to them and then i'll give serious consideration to negotiating a settlement.
Getting back to the card holders agreement, all agreements that I've seen have included something along the lines of
"20. Assignment
We may sell, assign or transfer all or some of our rights or obligations under this Agreement, without notice to you. In connection with any sale, assignment or transfer, we may give information about you and your Account to the purchaser or transferee."
So hypothetically even if I,m chasing my tail, the Bank had no authorization to sell the account and indeed even less to collect personal information etc.
They (the Bank) supposedly cannot produce the Agreement to give to the CA, that has to give me some negotiating power with someone somewhere.
If the agreement is of no importance why is it such a concern with FCAC that one is given to the consumer?

I have read the case that you made reference to in your previous blog and while the case is interesting, it has absolutely no application to your situation for several reasons.

For starters, you are not dealing with a bank. The bank sold the debt to a collection agency, therefore the bank is out of the picture. All banks in Canada are regulated by the Bank Act which is a Federal Statute. The Federal Consumer Agency of Canada Act is also a Federal Statute together with the Cost of Borrowing ( Banks ) Regulations All collection agencies in Canada are regulated provincially under their respective Collection Agencies Acts. Consequently, this Act and Regulation stated in this case have no application to collection agencies.

If you feel that you have been wronged by the bank in not supplying a Cardholder's Agreement, then you will have to bring an action against the bank. In my view, this would be a colossal waste of time and you would wind up "chasing your tail".

As I mentioned in my previous blog, give serious consideration to making a negotiated settlement with the collection agency If this matter goes to a Pre-Trial Settlement Conference or to Trial and you are still unemployed, the judge may make an Order for you to make a token payment towards this debt each month. However, if you are gainfully employed, don't expect any sympathy from the judge.

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Educating one Consumer at a time

I do believe you, however still not sure they will want to push this I quote below from an FCAC decision,

"Under the Cost of Borrowing (Banks) Regulations, banks must provide borrowers with various types of disclosure. The onus is on the banks to demonstrate that they have complied with their obligations.

The Bank argues that it is not legally required to retain records. FCAC does not dispute this fact. However, the Agency will call on banks to demonstrate that they have complied with the Regulations. In a case dealing with an allegation of non-disclosure, the simplest way for the financial institution to demonstrate compliance is by providing a copy of the actual disclosure document given to the client. This does not, however, preclude the use of other, less direct means to demonstrate compliance in certain circumstances"
from http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/industry/CommDecisions2/HTMs/100-eng.asp

with this in mind your advice regarding a settlement is proper, I would think they may be amiable to a good settlement bearing in mond the above, what do you think?

Believe me, if this matter ever gets to a Pre-Trial Settlement Conference or a Trial, producing a Cardholder's Agreement is the least of their concerns. All the judge wants to see is that they have a valid claim to this debt ( i.e. that they can prove that they purchased the debt ) and that all the charges that they are claiming can be proven with supporting documentation which they would have acquired at the time they purchased the debt. Your only defense is that the charges made on your credit card are fraudulent ( i.e. your credit card was stolen or lost and that you reported this immediately to the bank ) or that you made payments on your credit card for which the bank did not give you credit. And even this defense will fail because on both your Cardholder's Agreement and on your monthly statement you receive from the bank, it clearly states that you are to review your monthly statement and report any errors to the bank within 30 days of the statement date. Failure to do so will render the monthly statement as correct and no further adjustments will be made.

I would strongly urge you to give careful consideration as to how you intend to deal with this debt. You might want to give some consideration to a negotiated settlement whereby you make a lump sum payment in full settlement of this debt. Normally, collection agencies will not accept monthly payments on the "never never" plan. What you want to avoid at all costs is the collection agency taking you to trial and getting a judgment. While I realize that if you accept an employment position in New Brunswick that your salary is exempt from garnishment, a judgment will stay on your Credit Report for 6 years and your Credit Score will take a major "hit". This could adversely affect your ability to obtain credit or if you do obtain credit, at what price? Something to think about.

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Educating one Consumer at a time

Thanks for the information, one point though is that he said they can't produce an agreement.
Well would that not mean no cardholders agreement to show the judge = no authorization to sell the debt,

You are absolutely correct when you say that once a creditor obtains a judgment, they are unable to garnishee your salary or wages paid by an employer in New Brunswick. However, that same restriction does not apply to other sources of income unless it is specifically exempted under a particular Act or Statute. For example, Old Age Security and Canada Pension are exempt from garnishment pursuant to the Old Age Security Act and the Canada Pension Plan Act.

Having said that, a creditor, having obtained a judgment, has other enforcement options. The judgment creditor can request an Examination of the judgment debtor. This Examination can provide valuable information as to any assets that may be seized in order to satisfy the judgment and the Examination may disclose that the judgment debtor is able to pay a portion of the judgment on a periodic basis ( usually monthly ) until the judgment amount is paid.

An Examination is conducted in the court, under oath and is recorded. A judgment debtor is examined by the Clerk of the Court of Queen's Bench under Part III of the "Arrest and Examinations Act" ( sections 30 - 33 ).

If the Clerk is satisfied that the judgment debtor has sufficient income to make a periodic payment towards the judgment, the Clerk will issue an Order to do so.

If this Order is disobeyed, ignored, or neglected, it is treated as a "contempt of a court order" which will result in further penalties and a Contempt hearing.

The second point that you raised was whether a bank can sell your account. A bank can sell any asset it wishes to anyone at any time including debts receivable. Under the Cardholder's Agreement, this is clearly stated ( within the legal mumbo jumbo ) that the bank has the right to sell your account. You accepted these terms and conditions when you activated your credit card. Therefore, based on the facts you presented, it appears that the bank has sold your account to a collection agency; hence the bank is no longer in the picture. Any further contact with the bank will result in a redirection to the collection agency.

It matters not whether the bank sells these debts individually or in a batch. The fact still remains that the debt has been sold and now you are dealing with a collection agency. What should have happened is the collection agency should have sent you a letter stating that they have purchased your debt from the bank, the account number that the bank assigned to the debt and the total amount owing at the time of the purchase. The collection agency must wait 6 days before they can contact you by telephone. This letter then becomes their authority to discuss this debt with you. If you have not received this letter, the next time that you are talking to the collector, tell him to send you this letter before any further discussions take place.

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Educating one Consumer at a time

I'm not working now but I have a job offer with the Provincial Government in New Brunswick.