General Discussion - Items removed from credit report, but still asked about... - Canada

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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby DanielBl » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:14:35 AM

I certainly know that Augustine didn't carry a sword nor do any current Augustinians. If you don't believe me take a drive up to Marylake in King City just north of Toronto.

However, I'd be alot more worried about a collector like Deanna Natale carrying a sword than Augustine and what she might do to you if she catches you.

Muslims may have used swords to enforce their "Convert or die" ultimatum to infidels. Natale uses other weapons to convert infidel debtors to her beliefs but "Pay up or Die!" is still her ultimatum. If you doubt me, check out her thread on this forum.

On what you should do: it can be difficult to say once someone has a judgment registered against them. Probably the safest thing is to go to the Small Claims Court office where it was obtained and ask to see what is filed under your name. Don't tell the clerk anything more. Just give them your name and ask to see if there are any filings under it. But something that old may be stored in their archives, There might be a delay for them to dig up whatever documents exist. Or maybe, they'll have sufficient summary information on their computer system. The idea is to see with who (if anyone) the judgment is currently registered. Quite possibly it's all been forgotten by now. It's simply impossible to say. The point is you want to know if anyone could still be looking for you.

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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby arcadius » Thu Nov 04, 2010 09:18:47 PM

Heh, Augustine also provided the medieval papacy with canonical weight to promote conversion by the sword. Thus followed fun things like the Crusades. I suspect that 5th Century debt collectors may have been fond of Augustine of Hippo.

At any rate, yes ethical and moral aside, it's scary to think this, very small by any standard, debt could be growing and looming to those amounts is petrifying and unthinkable. But what to do about it now? Approach will almost certainly awake the sleeping dogs of recovery. Further ignorance could make that awakening even more devastating. Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Edit: Forgot to add, great advice about monitoring the soft inquires on my credit reports. There has never been anything from Sears Canada in the past six years, or from any CA at all. The oldest inquiry is from 2003 when I applied for my Home Trust Visa. Everything else is expected and explainable. So it would seem, knock on wood, they are not trolling for this particular small fish. But certainly very good advice, I thank-you again.

Second Edit: Given the age of the debt in question and the last record of contact that anyone has, is there nothing that falls under any sort of statute barred type thing that could provide some cover? Surely they can't recover something that has laid dormant for 12 years now?
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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby DanielBl » Thu Nov 04, 2010 08:46:42 PM

You're right about the incongruity between society's willingness to forgive criminal offenses more readily than moral ones. However, legally, an employer is not generally allowed to ask an applicant about any criminal offenses that haven't been pardoned. Unfortunately, that's not the same situation with the US Border Authority. They don't recognize Canadian or any other pardons. They share the same motto as Hell's Angels: God forgives - We don't.

I realize a debt of a 500 bucks is not a huge amount, but the point was that if they got an unsatisfied judgment for that amount, after 12 years, a retail card at 29.9 % interest would be approaching $20 K by now.

Remember, in Ontario post judgment interest usually is set at the prevailing rate of the loan agreement, not the Court default 5% value. Granted, they've probably forgotten all about it by now. Still, there are outfits like Natale Law Offices or Global Credit who specialize in tracking down old debts like these that everyone else has forgotten about. Be leery because having an outstanding unsatisfied judgment is like having a 407ETR bill laying around. Check the soft inquiries on your bureau reports all the same.

I can't get into all the moral casuistries of whether it's ever right to not tell the truth. The strict answer is that from Augustine on down through the centuries it's been held that to lie is never justified. Naturally, that creates all sorts of practical problematics. I got on some blogs a while back dealing with this principle and ended up going on for 20 pages about everything from Nazis coming to the door looking for Jews; lying on your tax return; undercover cops deceiving criminal organizations they're infiltrating; enigma decipherers sending false information to the Germans as a diversionary tool; job applicants falsifying their resumes etc. The sort of issues that classical moral theologians like Germain Grisez address in his book "Difficult Moral Questions."

Morality is a way more important issue than money, because it deals with eternal things rather than temporal, but it's still way outside the ambit of this blog.
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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby arcadius » Thu Nov 04, 2010 07:45:50 PM

I guess what I was mostly sort of getting at aside from the possibility of it surfacing during a mortgage application was more with the ethical point of the question even being asked. If there are no judgments or bankruptcies (which I have none) existing on my record, why should they be able to ask me to voluntarily disclose what they failed to find?

If you compare it to criminal offenses in this country ( I'm not trying to make a comparison between that and bad debt by any means), it seems that you can be found guilty of an offense, but then be discharged or pardoned, and then not , under any circumstances be forced to voluntarily disclose that information. Yet, with a financial offense, it seems the same protections do not apply. Even if you've satisfied the debt to the satisfaction of all parties involved, you can still be "asked" 15 yrs, or more I am sure, later to voluntarily disclose that and tarnish your own character? Surely, the same laws that prevent a pardoned or discharged criminal from incriminating themselves should apply to people who made very bad financial decisions in their youth?

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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby arcadius » Thu Nov 04, 2010 07:31:01 PM

Thank-you very much for a very intelligent and thought provoking response. I do understand the moral hazard issue. But surely, at some point, past transgressions should not produce a present hazard. Otherwise, we are not a very forgiving society as much as we'd like to appear to be one. People make mistakes, but forcing that person back to the mat to defend or explain those mistakes for the rest of their life does not serve any shared purpose that I can see.

Now for the financial hazard. The debt was small, and it was a Sears credit card that I got when I was about 21. It had a small limit and I used it irresponsibly, of that there is no doubt. The last balance that I can even try to recall when I left my part time job 12 years ago was probably about 400 or 500 hundred. I should have contacted them when my employment situation changed, but I didn't. I had a new career starting, but it was still a starting salary in Toronto, so money did not abound. It was hard enough to pay rent in that city on an entry level salary. At the time I was relieved they had not contacted me and did not take the initiative that I should have to contact them and resume a payment schedule. Mea Culpa. No doubt about that. But does a few hundred dollars eclipse the money that a home owner can put back into the community in property tax, and school tax, and possibly local sports, etc? Probably not. However, I am clearly biased. If the amount were owed to me, and the gulf in time was equally as large, then I'd probably weigh the effort in recovery vs the boon to my purse in recovering it. In this case the amount is, in my opinion, small and not worth anyone's effort. If I could pay it "on the sly" and not have to worry over future recovery attempts, I'd whip out my checkbook now without hesitation. But that time has passed I figure due to my own bad judgment. The last thing I want is to approach the original lender and pay whatever is still owed, only to have a shiny new R9 or whatever added to my now, and hard earned, decent credit record.

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RE: Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby DanielBl » Thu Nov 04, 2010 07:26:48 PM

This sort of painful question is becoming increasingly prevalent on all sorts of application forms, especially licence applications for jobs in the financial service industry. It's designed to reduce the risk, not just of financial hazard but moral hazard as well. Besides judgments, parallel questions are often asked about past or undischarged bankruptcies.

The question involves both moral and legal/practical issues. The former is more onerous because it's based on the principle everyone has an unrestricted right, if not to the truth, then at least not to be lied to. Morally, a debt exists forever unless it's been forgiven by the lender, paid off or settled for a reduced amount by the current debt holder. The fact that it's fallen off someone's credit report doesn't mean it's been forgiven by either God or the creditor. Those are the only 2 parties that can "forgive" a debt unless it's discharged by the Courts in an honest bankruptcy. "Honest," because not all are.

But when people ask this question, they're often only interested in the potential legal or practical consequences of making a false statement. True, someone can be charged with fraud if they obtain a loan by fraudulently misrepresenting their circumstances. But the misrepresentation would have to be far more material and immediate than failing to disclose a judgment which occurred 15 years ago, especially if it were paid off.

Practically speaking, the chances of them ever finding out are very low.
But no absolute answer can probably be given because you never know who knows who. At minimum though you should disclose the situation with your partner so that she is not walking into something blind. You got a judgment rendered against you. Thousands of people do every year. Not the most embarrassing thing in the world.

One possible additional point to keep in mind: Unsatisfied judgments do NOT disappear after 6 years even if you don't see them on your credit reports. They can sit there virtually forever gathering compound post judgment interest. The creditor who obtained it was savvy enough to pursue its collection through wage garnishments. In many cases, if money is still owing, they sit back, year after year, monitoring your financial situation, waiting for the defendant to accumulate property to seize. Check the soft inquiries section of both of both of your credit bureau reports if the judgment remains unsatisfied.

Otherwise (like a lady in Kitchener, with a 12 year old unsatisfied judgment her husband had against him and ignored), you might come out one morning and find your SUV missing from the driveway.
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Items removed from credit report, but still asked about...

Postby arcadius » Thu Nov 04, 2010 07:11:14 PM

So several years now since my student loans have been all paid off--I believe it was back in 2004 or 2005. I have since received two car loans ( 5yr terms), one paid in full with zero late, and 1.5 yrs into the second..no missed or late payments. I have not missed a payment on my credit cards or anything else. When I pull up my credit report I am rated as "Good" and should expect favourable rates on loans etc. For clarification, my Transunion score is 755 and my Equifax is only 692 ( which is baffling but has improved a bit since I last posted, it was I think 583 in the spring). My debt to income ratio is great, so I'm hoping the scores sort of even out and appear favourable enough. My wife and I are looking at buying our first property right now. We have 20% to put down ( 25k from me and 25k from her from our savings), I don't even have to dip into any RRSP, we have just managed to save that much each in the last couple of years. We both have above average incomes and I have no debt other than a small balance I maintain on my credit cards to show I can use and not abuse them ( very credit shy now after the years of crap I went through when younger, so I tend to not really use the cards I have that much), and of course the balance on my previously mentioned car loan. So I think, at least, there should be no issues. She's a physician and self employed so she's a bit nervous about that, but the lender we approached said we could probably qualify with my income alone, so she doesn't have to even necessarily provide all the supporting documents that self employed people have to do. So all looks great....except, while filling out the mortgage application I came across a part that is worrying me a bit...

Aside from messing up my student loans years ago I also had a consumer debt that ended up in a judgment against me in my mid-20's. They guaranshied part of my wages and then I graduated and moved to a big city and started my first "real" job. I never heard from them again and it has since long dropped off of both equifax and Transunion reports. But there is a question on the form asking if there has ever been a judgment against me and when it was satisfied. So I'm not sure how to answer that. If I'm honest then it's a mark against us and completely embarrassing for me as this is a shared application form and don't exactly want to air my 15 yr old dirty laundry to my wife. So I guess my question is although it no longer appears on a credit report, will this come up in my mortgage application process? I'd rather not have to disclose this as I said it's very embarrassing and potentially devastating to the application.

I understand that the fact that it no longer shows up on a credit report does not mean I was absolved of the debt so to speak, but is there any point to drawing attention to it now?

Very scared and a bit confused as to how to approach this. It seems like it's almost as if asking someone if they have ever been convicted of an offence and ignoring the whole "for which a pardon has been granted" part of it. Even if I had of finished paying it and satisfying it, why should they be able to ask about things that no longer appear on a credit report? Is this something, that no matter how much time passes, I am always going to have to disclose? As in this will dog me for the rest of my life relentlessly?

Thanks

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