Collection Agencies - Best way to handle this ??? - Canada

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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby halifax111 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 07:28:14 AM

Thanks for the information, I've been communicating via letter with them and as a trial balloon raised the issue of them raising the interest rate due to late payments.
Also I alleged that the disclosed rate of interest on the statement was incorrect as over the limit fees should also fall within the definition of interest CITATION: DeWolf v. Bell ExpressVu Inc., 2009 ONCA 644
On Appeal the appeals judge said

[39] In my view, for the purposes of analysis, a distinction must be made between institutions whose business it is to lend money or advance credit on the one hand, and service providers like the appellants and Consumers’ Gas Co. on the other hand. Where the relationship between the parties is exclusively one of lending money, any additional charges or fees are inherently connected to the lending of money or the advancing of credit, regardless of their label. Generally speaking, such fees are likely to fall within the definition of interest in s. 347.

In their response they admitted that they were unable to provide me with a copy of the account disclosure document as they do not retain past seven years.
However they hang there case on the fact that they did provide "updated account terms" some five years ago I'm sure I received them but five years it meant nothing.
They never commented on the disclosed rate of interest allegation, bottom line is they offered a settlement which reduced the interest rate and forgave some interest charges.
Oh and yes they have given me three months to consider the settlement!
My gut tells me that they are a touch leery about the disclosed rate of interest allegation but I could be wrong.
Interested to hear any pro or con opinions about my feeling.

The offer is still to high for me I just can't pay it
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby DanielBl » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:44:43 AM

There you go, forget the interest.

Defaulted debts are bought up in large portfolios. The amount depends on how stale or turned over the debt is. I'm not sure if anyone is buying stats barred debts anymore. The rates are published in the various collections trade magazines. Top rates for fresh debt used to be as high as 6 or 7 cents on the dollar but most of it went for a penny or two OR even less.

But debt buyers like Aktiv Kapital and ARO can't apply your reasoning and still make a profit. If a $10,000.00 debt in a portfolio was purchased for 75 cents on the dollar or $75.00, that doesn't mean they'll be willing to settle it with you for $100.00 or even $150.00 because that's a big enough margin. It is on that individual debt, but they might only be able to realize settlements on 5% of the portfoloio accounts.

You can see a representative article from Bloonberg where current US rates are quoted as being from 2% to 6%, but they are some portfolios lower than that.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_46/b3959128.htm

As well, they incur lots admin and legal expenses phoning, lying, bamboozling, screaming, threatening to sue and sometimes actually suing the myriad debt owners involved. It's not all gravy, but then the owners aren't driving Honda Civics either.
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby nameuser » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:33:56 AM

I'd try for a 50%-60% (of the principle) settlement on a Cap1 debt. Especially if it is with an agency.

If you're really serious about settling, just suggest a 30-40% might be obtainable and see where they try to move you up to. It's a pretty good way to figure out what the blanket settlements are if you can smooth talk them a little bit.

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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby halifax111 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:31:41 AM

Thanks appreciate your reply, do you know what they generally sell them to a debt buyer for, percentage wise?
Logically one would assume that anything over that percentage they would go for but perhaps I'm being to simplistic.
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby DanielBl » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:18:43 AM

I'm not real familiar with Capital One. Nevertheless, whoever they are, it's not always possible to predict what a given creditor will do even when the amount is fairly substantial as the case of Nmorete4 illustrates so well. Certainly, if the amount is modest or small, they won't sue; but other than that, it's often a crapshoot.

It obviously depends a lot on your financial circumstances. Nimorete4 owed RBC $20K to RBC, and she has substantial equity in a house but no job. Meanwhile, she owes comparable unsecured amounts to Capital One and CIBC. However, they haven't done anything to her (YET) other than send the accounts to collection agencies.

As a general rule, you should be able, with little or no effort, to get a credit card debt settled fot 65%. Many delinquent credit card account lenders or their subsequent debt purchasers will automatically offer to settle for that amount after it becomes R9 or past 180 days.

With other outfits like MBNA, it shouldn't take much effort to get them down to 50%. In fact, Namuser, who apparently was/is involved in creditor litigation, quotes a much lower figure for them. Ditto if the acccount is sold to a debt buyer down the road. They buy them for a song and, consequently, are more amenable for settling for a lot less. I mention this because the limitation period for action is still 6 years in Nova Scotia, thus there is a higher probability the debt will get sold before it becomes stats barred.

If someone has scant income or assets, the creditor will have researched that fact beforehand. In this case, you might surmize the creditor would be amenable to settling for Average Joe's 10%. After all, 10% is still better than nothing. However, many of the banks like BMO still insist on 80% irregardless. If word gets out that delinquent accounts are being settled for !0% or 20%, that would damage their recovery prospects with other accounts. Everyone would want the same deal.

Sorry, but that's all I can say given the limited information presented.
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby halifax111 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 07:45:22 AM

thanks for the reply, may as well know the way things really work.
You seem to know who's who in the collection business, any names,numbers at Capital One that I could use to try and get a settlement on a credit card account?
All I get is b/s from the general number and stuff like "we don't settle" and then the next statement say's "call us we can help, maybe we can settle for less than the original amount."
I understand they are quick on the trigger to file a lawsuit, appreciate any info.
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby DanielBl » Wed Oct 13, 2010 03:06:01 AM

No, it will not help you in the slightest. No one cares about PIPEDA. The legislation was merely a token government make work project for a bunch of chrony lawyers, who if they hadn't been doing that, would have been drafting useless E-Health Ontario legislation @ $1000 an hour.

You can get the info eventually from TD but you just have to complain to or nag the right people. Too lengthy to give you the all phone nos. right now. But start by calling the TD ombudsman @ 416-982-4884/1-888-361-0319 and you'll just get an unanswered recording. Paul Huyer, used to be the TD ombudsman (don't know if he still is). Fax him @ 416 983-3460 or email TD.ombudsman@TD.com; or call the overall ombudsman for all banks @1-888 451-4519. Or maybe just keep calling the Office of the President and fax him a copy of the whole 200 page PIPEDA Act and keep hitting "resend" every day until their printer wears out.

Pomer & Boccia, under collection lawyer, David Pomer, do a lot of the dirty work for TD, sending out endless illegal threats and BS with their presumed blessing. They know they have little to fear from Brian Pitkin or the Law Society. The token PIPEDA compliance officer for Pomer & Boocia is a guy called Joe Eartipilo @ 416 213-7450 ext.1435 or 1-888-858-529. He never answers the phone and promises to get back to you in 24 hours - but he really means 24 years.

In any event, if you read Mark Silverthorn's book on dealing with collection lawyers and getting your PIPEDA file, you'll find the reality is often quite different from what he describes. For example, try contacting the token compliance officer, Manny Veligman at Global Credit and Collections who use Natale Law Offices and see how far you get. You might have to send in a SWAT team.

Some readers may think I am being sarcastic - but trust me - it really is that bad!

the Office of the Predsident. But you can see that getting the PIPEDA isn't always as simple as people make out.
Outfits like Pomer & Boccia work for TD and make a lot of phoney threatshave PPotfit
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby halifax111 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 08:48:09 PM

I'm in that situation right now, cannot get the info, as DanielBl say's they are stonewalling (TD).
My question is if it ends up in court will the fact that they won't respond with this information help me in any way?
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby DanielBl » Mon Oct 11, 2010 06:24:50 PM

Nameuser is correct about that. They have 30 days to comply. The problem is a lot of collectors, their lawyers and debt buyers like legal outfit Pomer & Boccia, Global Credit and Collections (who have Natale Law Offices working for them), Total Credit Recovery or even TCH Alliance One will stonewall you if you demand their file on you. Surprisingly, the ombudsman at major banks, like TD, will also sometimes do this when their collection lawyers like the aformentioned Pomer & Boccia break the rules.

Yes, they all officially have "compliance officers" to appear to meet the letter of the PIPEDA law. However, many or most or all collection agencies and debt buyers are guilty of using illegal tactics to collect. Such tactics would be on their internal tracking log (notefile) they keep on assignees. Not wanting debtors to see such info, they'll outright stonewall anyone trying to get it.

They're pretty secure in knowing that the Ottawa federal bureaucrats are about as useless as their provincial counterparts in consumer protection.
so nothing will ever come of any complaint.

If you've ever dealt with those guys, I won't have to say any more. Beyond pathetic. You soon realize, in practice, privacy rights principally go one way only and there's no will to enforce the legislation.

I'm not saying you can't get the file, but it may be a lot harder than what Mark Silverthorn outlines in his book(s).

If someone doesn't owe a certain account, it's often best just to get the collection agency or debt buyer's ombudsman on the phone and explain the situation.
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RE: Best way to handle this ???

Postby nameuser » Mon Oct 11, 2010 03:18:51 PM

No I am not referring to the useless debt validation tactic.

The creditor is required to provide you the information they have about your account in accordance with PIPEDA when you request it.

It's actually a good question you have though, so I added an article to my friends site regarding proving debt.

Getting proof of a debt from a creditor

http://www.priv.gc.ca/information/02_05_d_08_e.cfm

1. Seeing your personal information

If you want to see the information that an organization holds about you, write to it directly with your request. Provide dates, account numbers and any other details that would help the organization track down the information you want.

Ordinarily, the organization must give you the information within a reasonable time and at minimal or no cost. There are, however, exceptions, such as if disclosure would threaten somebody else’s life or security.

3. Considering a complaint

You are entitled to file a complaint if you believe a business is violating any provision of PIPEDA.

For example, you might complain if you run into trouble obtaining your personal information, if an organization refuses to correct information you consider inaccurate or incomplete, or if you suspect your personal information has been improperly collected, used or disclosed.

It’s important to try to settle the dispute yourself first. Under PIPEDA, organizations must have on staff a person who is responsible for privacy issues, and this is where you could begin.

You may also want to contact the organization's industry association, ombudsman or complaints office, if there is one. For example, the Canadian Marketing Association and the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments handle customer complaints about their member companies.

If you aren’t satisfied with the outcome, you have the option of filing a complaint with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada.

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The creditor or agency will have to respond to a complaint filed with that office if you have attempted to gather the information and were given no response from the creditor or agency. They have to provide you their records or tell you that it isn't available. If it isn't 'available' then it's WAY easier to walk away from without them doing anything to you.

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